„We must have greater trust in companies“
Dr. Kukies, you have been the Federal Minister of Finance since November. What are your goals for your term in office?
The budget is at the centre of attention. The key issue is ensuring the provisional budget management for 2025.
Do you still hope for any legislative action before the Bundestag elections?
We managed to pass the tax relief, child benefits, and child allowances very quickly, contrary to all expectations. A major goal would be to finalise the law to combat financial crime, in order to establish the new authority.
Why is this so important to you?
It would address the weaknesses in the fight against financial crime in Germany that were flagged during the last review by the Financial Action Task Force. We committed to establishing the AMLA, the EU authority for anti-money laundering, in Frankfurt.
The draft law has been ready for adoption in the Bundestag since the end of June. What's missing?
In the last week of January, the Bundestag could pass the law if a majority is in favour. The decision lies with the parliament. We are hopeful that it will happen.
In December, you managed to get a batch of urgent EU implementations through the Bundestag.
Exactly. The Financial Market Digitalization Act was particularly important. We received a lot of support from the financial market. We also succeeded in amending the statute of the European Investment Bank to make capital use more efficient.
Are there other open issues?
We are trying to bundle a few points into an omnibus law and push them through despite all the political excitement. This includes capital relief for promotional banks.
The Future Financing Act II was approved by the cabinet in December. Was that too late?
With the Tax Reform Act, it seemed for a long time that there would be no majority in the Bundestag or Bundesrat. Suddenly, it was there. So it made sense to prepare the government draft in the cabinet. Both the Union and the FDP publicly expressed general approval.
The reform of pension systems in all three pillars has been stalled. Is there still hope for progress?
For me, it is one of the greatest disappointments that we couldn't complete the reforms in occupational and private pensions during this legislative period. We had made significant progress in the coordination process. All the groundwork has been done and received broad approval. Therefore, we firmly believe that the work is not lost. It is necessary to make progress in all three pillars of pension provision.
The SPD election program explicitly supports the targeted promotion of occupational pensions and private pension plans.
Capital cover is not in the SPD election program.
That's incorrect. The SPD election program explicitly supports the targeted promotion of occupational pensions and private pensions. „We want to expand offerings without contribution guarantees but with higher expected returns“ is a quote from the SPD election program that was adopted last Saturday.
Would the SPD support a tax-privileged pension depot account?
In the interdepartmental coordination, there was broad consensus on almost all proposals from the private pension focus group. Standardised models for reference portfolios played a major role, and there was broad agreement among all departments that we need effective tax incentives.
You want to delay the EU's sustainability reporting requirement, CSRD, for companies. What concerns you?
Our joint initiative with the EU Commission to reduce bureaucracy has received a lot of support – but now we need to take it seriously and move towards concrete implementation. The wave of companies that will be subject to additional sustainability reporting under CSRD will be very large – the next phase starting on January 1, 2026 would affect about 13,000 German companies, especially small and medium-sized enterprises.
What will be expected of companies?
Each of them will need to provide around 1,000 data points or at least explain why fewer are provided – in addition to the already existing sustainability reporting obligations. Indirectly, many more companies will be affected.
What would the solution be?
Our proposal is to delay the sustainability reporting obligation for all companies that would have to report under CSRD requirements for the 2025 fiscal year or later by two years. We should also completely abandon the additional sectoral reporting under CSRD, as well as the entire taxonomy reporting obligations. The time gained by the two year delay should be used to rethink a significantly streamlined, effective, and efficient system for sustainability reporting.
Every CFO could tell absurd stories about how the same data has to be reported multiple times.
Are there additional requirements from the financial sector?
In addition to the reporting obligations for banks and insurers, companies need to fulfill further reporting obligations to obtain financing. Just last week, the European Banking Authority introduced a new wave of ESG reporting requirements that even the smallest savings banks must comply with. No financial institution has the necessary information on hand – they have to request it from their corporate clients, which triggers a new wave of bureaucracy.
What would be efficient?
The different reporting regimes should be synchronised so that each data point only has to be reported once. Every CFO could tell absurd stories about how the same data has to be reported multiple times. We need more fundamental regulations and less micromanagement. Additionally, European and international regulations must be aligned and interpreted uniformly.
Do we need more principles-based systems?
We must have greater trust in companies. We must establish principles and not prescribe every single sentence or data point. Companies need to assess what is relevant.
We must have greater trust in companies. We must establish principles and not prescribe every single sentence or data point.
Because of the lack of implementation of the CSRD in Germany, the EU has initiated an infringement procedure. What happens next?
The parliamentary procedure was in full swing when the coalition broke apart. It's likely that the implementation law will not be passed during this legislative period, given the current state of the discussions. However, we are still legally obligated to implement the CSRD. Then we will also see what changes have been made to the EU regulations for companies that will be required to report starting in 2026.
The SPD wants to further develop Banking Union and Capital Markets Union. How is securitisation progressing?
At the end of last year, I discussed securitisation with my French counterpart Éric Lombard. The core issue is improving the framework for securitisation in a risk-appropriate way. The German-French cooperation here is very important, and we agree that securitisation can make a significant contribution to financing the real economy. It will come down to two major topics: How can we simplify the securitisation framework? This concerns the granularity of documentation obligations, and the types of reports. The fixed cost burden of each securitisation is very high due to complex disclosure obligations and analyses.
And the second issue...
... concerns all the potential capital burdens. The cost of a securitisation is often much higher than even its riskiest parts. This leads to a lack of capital efficiency. Sectoral issues also come into play – such as the high capital burden for insurers and banks from securitisations.
Will we see progress?
Yes, there will be movement on this. The new EU Commissioner, Maria Luís Albuquerque, is working on ideas. Germany and France are actively involved. We expect legislative proposals that will be high on the priority list. Those who praised the Draghi report must also be ready to engage. Capital Markets Union, including risk-appropriate improvements in securitisations, is very important in the Draghi report.
Are the new finance ministers in Berlin and Paris on the same page as their predecessors?
Especially with regard to Capital Markets Union, there is broad agreement. My French colleague has a very good understanding, through his work at the French development bank Caisses des Dépôts, of where things are getting stuck. I can have very deep and productive discussions with him.
On Banking Union: Are cross-border mergers good for Europe?
Yes. Germany is an open market for international investors in our banks, insurers, and asset managers. Of the 15 systemically relevant banks in Germany, five are not German. We have seen takeovers of German private banks by Dutch and French banks in recent years. We will continue to have many cross-border activities, and that's a good thing. There should be no misunderstanding. It's absolutely crucial that Germany remains an open banking market. We are a global economy with a very high share of export and import activities. These need to be financed.
Hostile takeovers are not a viable strategy in the banking sector, especially when it comes to systemically important banks.
Does this apply to Unicredit and Commerzbank?
This is about an individual case. Transparency was lacking. Hostile takeovers are not a viable strategy in the banking sector, especially when it comes to systemically important banks.
Unicredit CEO Andrea Orcel is not following a viable strategy?
This is not about strategies, but about trust and transparency in large systemically important banks.
The SPD aims to revive the wealth tax, effectively abolish the withholding tax, introduce a financial transaction tax, and increase taxes on high incomes, including partnerships. Will this benefit Germany as a business location?
Above all, Germany as a business location benefits from the „Made-in-Germany“ bonus included in the SPD's programme for government. This involves targeted investment subsidies for companies investing in Germany and extending tax incentives for research to larger companies. The Federal Constitutional Court has set high requirements for a wealth tax. A wealth tax should not negatively impact Germany's attractiveness or willingness to invest.
Capital gains are set to be taxed again under the income tax rate. Will losses also become deductible?
Profits distributed to private investors as dividends have already been taxed at the corporate level. Under the existing flat tax, this often results in higher taxation than under the income tax rate. The total tax burden on dividends currently stands at around 48%.
The total tax burden on dividends currently stands at around 48%.
Even conservative finance ministers have failed to introduce the financial transaction tax.
I was present at all of Olaf Scholz's discussions during his tenure as Federal Finance Minister. At that time, it was not feasible to reach a consensus in Europe, nor was it under former Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble.
Regarding the federal budget: 2024 is being finalised – which way is it leaning?
The prediction that we would manage without a supplementary budget and without needing a budget freeze has proven accurate. It appears that a significant portion of the 10 billion euros reserve can be preserved and carried forward into 2025. This is necessary because the gap in the federal budget draft for 2025 persists and has widened rather than narrowed.
What would the solution be?
There is no solution to this gap yet. I am somewhat surprised by recent discussions about extraordinary expenditures. The money would have to come from somewhere. I have not yet heard a concrete proposal on where cuts should be made. You know that the Chancellor made a proposal for this at the beginning of November. Ultimately, this led to the coalition's breakdown. We will need significant discipline in the provisional budget management for 2025, even without these additional ideas.
How should a reformed debt brake ensure solid public finances?
The key point is: It must be targeted. We cannot simply increase flexibility. A reform must focus on measures that sustainably and permanently enhance our growth potential. Existing possibilities within the debt brake can also be better utilized.
How can this be achieved?
I advocate for a much more precise definition of investment, with little room for interpretation. The definition must be linked to an increase in our potential growth, which is currently only at 0.5%. The structurally weak potential growth is the core problem of our economy. Incentives for private and public investments, reducing bureaucracy, and attracting more skilled workers are examples of how we can and must increase our potential growth.
I advocate for a much more precise definition of investment, with little room for interpretation.
You have plans to relieve municipalities of legacy debts. How far along are you?
We have now initiated the consultation with states and associations on the specific proposal. The cabinet can approve it afterward. We will not incur new national debt but will redistribute debt between municipal, state, and federal levels. The goal is to enable municipalities with high legacy debts to reinvest in kindergartens, schools, and public transport – while also creating the right incentives to prevent new debt.
Will this be a nationwide initiative or targeted at heavily indebted municipalities?
Our proposal is a regulation allowing the federal government, in conjunction with the states, to take over the legacy debt of overly indebted municipalities on a one-time basis. This requires a constitutional amendment, meaning a two-thirds majority in both the Bundestag and Bundesrat. Therefore, the initiative must be supported by both the federal and state governments. In each individual case, the state concerned must also participate.